[2024] Gigi D'Agostino & Daniele Gas - Experiments Vol 1 (Vinyl Reissue) (Daniele Gas Self-Released)

[hlennarz]

https://www.discogs.com/release/29663581-Gigi-DAgostino-Daniele-Gas-Experiments-Vol-1-Subway

 

Es handelt sich hierbei um "Lathe-Cuts" auch bekannt als "Dub-Platten" die für Daniele Gas von https://www.berlinervinylwerk.de hergestellt werden.

 

Tonqualität ist recht schlecht. Verwendet wurden für die "neue" Version Aufnahmen der 1994er Vinyl. Zudem scheinen es mp3s zu sein (harter Frequenzschnitt bei 16khz, kein typischer analoger "Rolloff").

Es sind die selben Störgeräusche hörbar die schon in diesem hochgeladenen Medley der Platte von Daniele zu hören sind. z.B. dieses doch recht markannte "reißende" Geräuch bei 1:47:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TATXqx2-XJc

 

Die Original-Aufnahmen sind wohl schon vor langer Zeit verloren gegangen. Ich vermute damals war es gang und gebe DAT Tapes etc. wiederzuverwenden.

 

Das design ist sehr stark an die Promo von 1994 angelehnt (Permanent Marker). Selbst das längst untergegangene Label "Subway" steht weiterhin drauf. Also aufgepasst, dass ihr nicht die 1994er Promo wollt und mit dieser hier endet... *seufz*

 

Auf jedenfall nicht günstig. Für diese hier will Daniele keine Angebote unter 200€ sehen. 

Bearbeitet 2. Februar von hlennarz

[zabuyaque]

I’m curious how you’ve got to know it’d been made by Berliner Vinyl Werk since the record has no matrix. 🤔

I also quite don’t get that price, I understand it costs something to make each copy that has to recorded in real time and to get something for the music itself. Maybe he doesn’t want the originals to lose their value, otherwise I don’t know. 🤨

[Daft]

So sehr ich Daniele als Musiker schätze, diese Geschäftspraktik ist wirklich höchst fragwürdig. Im besten Fall kann man Abzocke unterstellen (aktuell verlangt er für diese Nachbildung 280 €!), im schlimmsten sogar Betrug. Denn solch ein Replikat auf der Seite der Originalplatte von 1994 zu verkaufen, ist schon höchst dreist und vermutlich gemäß den Discogs Richtlinien auch nicht erlaubt. Man muss die Beschreibung schon sehr genau lesen, um zu erkennen, dass es nicht das Original ist. Spätestens jetzt, wo du einen Release für die Nachbildung erstellt hast, sollte er seinen Artikel nun auch dort verkaufen und aus der 1994 Promo rausnehmen.

Bearbeitet 1. Februar von Daft

[intro111]

vor allem hier ... https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/6143823?ev=rb

einmal Gas mit "This record come from my personal collection is new and never used! This is the first personal promo copy with high quality 180 grams. No offers below 200 euros."

und darüber ein Händler mit "This record come from the personal collection of Daniele Gas is new and never used. This is the first personal release with high vinyl quality 180gr. No offers below 200 euros"

Also, wer hat denn jetzt den "first personal release" jetzt?

[hlennarz]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb intro111:

vor allem hier ... https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/6143823?ev=rb

einmal Gas mit "This record come from my personal collection is new and never used! This is the first personal promo copy with high quality 180 grams. No offers below 200 euros."

und darüber ein Händler mit "This record come from the personal collection of Daniele Gas is new and never used. This is the first personal release with high vinyl quality 180gr. No offers below 200 euros"

Also, wer hat denn jetzt den "first personal release" jetzt?

Hierzu sei gesagt, dass wenn man die Platte bei Daniele direkt kauft es auch über diesen Shop letztendlich läuft.

Nunja, seine Reaktion in meinem Fall war: "send the record back and I'll refund you. I will never speak to you again."

uff... fühlt sich da wer ertappt?

Bearbeitet 2. Februar von hlennarz

[hlennarz]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb zabuyaque:

I’m curious how you’ve got to know it’d been made by Berliner Vinyl Werk since the record has no matrix. 🤔

I also quite don’t get that price, I understand it costs something to make each copy that has to recorded in real time and to get something for the music itself. Maybe he doesn’t want the originals to lose their value, otherwise I don’t know. 🤨

Daniele has berlinervinylwerk.de linked on his social media platforms. I guess he came across them when he was in Berlin earlier this year (he told me when I bought the Creative Nature 2 record off of him). He did mention he was going to sell this promo "in a few weeks" on Discogs. I guess that was the time it took for them to be made... lol

The production price when you order 3 copies there (that's the amount he has had for sale so far) is listed as €36,96 - €51,60 , so he's reselling them for more more then 4 times the price. 

Bearbeitet 2. Februar von hlennarz

[zabuyaque]

There is also a white label of “Tin Drums” being offered, so I’ve just wondered for a while if it couldn’t be the same, both of them have been submitted by pulsebox-music. However, that one is not listed as new and it’s cheaper. Also if you compare your and his images, your one has a completely flat label, likely stickered, while the originally submitted pictures have those two circles, one small closer to the centre hole and a bigger one closer to the outer edge, those submitted photos look like a pressed record.

Bearbeitet 2. Februar von zabuyaque

[hlennarz]

New description text:

 

It is not a re-release but it is the original disc with better quality than the previous low industrial quality 140g promo. 

 

Thats... not how that works, lol

Bearbeitet 3. Februar von hlennarz

[Daft]

Oh Mann und natürlich immer noch unter dem falschen Original Release von 1994 und nicht unter dem Re-Release von 2024. Langsam wird es echt lächerlich mit so einer hanebüchenen Argumentation  Ich kann doch nicht etwas als Original verkaufen, wenn es nicht das Original ist, selbst wenn es 1000-mal besser als das Original wäre. Nachbildung bleibt Nachbildung.

[hlennarz]

verkauft sich da halt besser... 

 

Vor allem ist Gewicht bei Vinyl ein neumodisches "Hipster" Qualitätsargument. Sagt über die Tonqualität 0,nichts aus.

Bearbeitet 3. Februar von hlennarz

[zabuyaque]

Will you keep your copy anyway or will you return it since you’ve been offered this option?

Another quality issue is that despite being a possible mp3 sourced recording, of course it’s practically unprovable, it might’ve been just low-passed, the sound could’ve been also post-processed, like auto declicked, denoised which potentially even further decrease audio quality if not used wisely. We can’t tell from the YouTube video, it sounds pretty bad there, but it is just 480p, so the audio track bitrate must be quite low too. Those high bitrate mp3 files that used to be offered on his website could give us some idea about the sound.

If the original audio tracks are not available anymore, he could’ve tried to re-record these tracks, that wouldn’t be the same as the original but certainly a nice approach in my opinion, and of course being clearly stated to be a reissue.

Daft is right that it’s against the Discogs policies to sell something under a different entry, e.g. you cannot sell a cassette under a CD or vinyl release page with a note like “WARNING: This is a tape, NOT a CD/LP”. Actually such listings may be reported, but I understand not everyone is keen on submitting a release they just want to sell and I’m personally fine with that if sellers are honest and clear about that in the notes, some sellers even warn you after you place an order, so they can cancel it if you overlook their notes and don’t want it.

There is a reasonable argument for heavy weight vinyl, 180 g or even 240 g, that is they are less prone to warping, but if they do, they are nearly impossible to straighten, though I personally don’t put much faith in these techniques. It certainly doesn’t sound any better, though some audiophiles belive it.

[Daft]

vor einer Stunde schrieb zabuyaque:

Daft is right that it’s against the Discogs policies to sell something under a different entry, e.g. you cannot sell a cassette under a CD or vinyl release page with a note like “WARNING: This is a tape, NOT a CD/LP”. Actually such listings may be reported, but I understand not everyone is keen on submitting a release they just want to sell and I’m personally fine with that if sellers are honest and clear about that in the notes, some sellers even warn you after you place an order, so they can cancel it if you overlook their notes and don’t want it.

Maybe I could understand this behaviour if it were sellers with thousands of items on offer, but this is clearly not the case here (and even then it‘d be strictly prohibited). Especially Gas, as he only has a handful of records for sale, so no one can tell me he couldn‘t create a dedicated release for this obvious re-issue that he was charging 280 € for. Furthermore, they only added that disclaimer after hlennarz had complained to them as they‘re probably fearing refund requests after buyers realize it‘s not the real thing. I find it shady how even now they are defending this thing as if it was the original release, but „improved“. Doesn‘t make any sense at all, except for trying to fool potential buyers into falling for this.

Bearbeitet 3. Februar von Daft

[zabuyaque]

Of course, I agree with you. The notes were not clear and made buyers to believe it was either a white label or a pre-release test press copy which could’ve even had a different run-out revealing a previous cut like my white label of City of Night does. I myself wouldn’t imagine a modern personal reissue, either.
 

On 2/2/2024 at 5:04 AM, hlennarz said:

The production price when you order 3 copies there (that's the amount he has had for sale so far) is listed as €36,96 - €51,60 , so he's reselling them for more more then 4 times the price. 

Maybe the price is justified, 50 bucks for the production costs, 50 for Daniele, 50 for Gigi, and the last 50 euros for the costs of shipping and handling. 🤪

Btw. no copies for sale now. Sold out?

Bearbeitet 3. Februar von zabuyaque

[Daft]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb zabuyaque:

Btw. no copies for sale now. Sold out?

Let‘s say I enabled them an opportunity to sell the item on the correct release page this time 😉

Bearbeitet 3. Februar von Daft

[hlennarz]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb zabuyaque:

Will you keep your copy anyway or will you return it since you’ve been offered this option?

I will keep it as a curiosity. I told him I'm not happy but assume it was all a misunderstanding and suggested him to update the information. And well, he did in a vague manner.

[hlennarz]

Welp, now the guys from Berliner Vinylwerk have changed the release page on Discogs with description text:

 

"This release was issued in January 2024 under the Notalkin Recordings label, owned by Daniele Gas, with catalog number NT002. It is a limited edition of Experiments Vol 1, featuring a white label and audio remastered from the 1994 version. The vinyl has been meticulously cut onto a 180g support, and the cover is white with a distinctive hole, accompanied by a white inner sleeve coated in plastic."

 

[Daft]

That‘s a really interesting turn of events. At least that‘s some useful information about the label if true. Then I have to wonder, though, why they mimicked the original 1994 promo’s vinyl label so closely, even down to the supposed record label „Subway“? Why not be transparent from the beginning that it is a modern release from Notalkin Recordings?

Edit: To be clear, I‘m not blaming the manufacturer Berliner Vinylwerk for all this „confusion“. I am grateful that they stepped up and put some clarity into this.

Bearbeitet 4. Februar von Daft

[zabuyaque]

Just come across a YouTube video that shows another possible variant of this record, meaning the original one. It has white text as opposed to the more common blue text on the black background, the first letters look to be red coloured by hand which leads me to think it’s not been just discoloured in an app.

[hlennarz]

Oh yeah I came across it too and thought it looked "off" but couldn't place it.

[Daft]

The release is now also available on Bandcamp, both digitally and as 12“ vinyl. What‘s really interesting about this, however, is that it has a completely different label than the one that hlennarz has uploaded on Discogs. Instead of the plain white label with handwriting that mimics the 1994 promo, this one has a professionally printed label with the No Talking Records logo (assuming what‘s displayed there is what you actually receive) 🤔 I don‘t get what‘s going on anymore.

https://danielegasmaffei.bandcamp.com/album/gigi-dagostino-daniele-gas-experiments-vol-1

[hlennarz]

this might be the final release, and I got an "advance promo"

OR Daniele realised the previous design was a bad idea.

 

Anyway, I might have the rarest copy of Experiments 1 now XD (1 out of 3, with two of them never sold ?)

Bearbeitet 6. Februar von hlennarz

[Daft]

That could be the case. Another possibility would be that what‘s displayed on Bandcamp is just some digital artwork and when you order it, you actually receive the version that you got from Discogs. It doesn‘t appear to be an actual photo. Anyone willing to spend 200€ to solve this mystery? 

[Daft]

Has anyone bought the digital version yet? I‘m listening to it right now and while it‘s nice to have this as an official digital release, I‘m a little bit disappointed by the audio quality. It sounds quite flat with very little dynamics. Even the recordings from my 1994 retail vinyl, which is in a very poor shape, sound richer than this. What’s more, you can hear some noticeable clicks and scratches from the vinyl recording being used here. To be honest, I expected a bit more from this, given that it is marketed as „remastered“.

Bearbeitet 6. Februar von Daft

[hlennarz]

Zitat

Has anyone bought the digital version yet?

I'm not paying 15€ for 4 noisy vinyl recordings of obscure audio material i won't ever seriously listen to, lol

 

it's the same rips he did in 2017 i believe. (for the youtube "medley" upload at least)

Bearbeitet 6. Februar von hlennarz

[zabuyaque]

22 hours ago, hlennarz said:

I'm not paying 15€ for 4 noisy vinyl recordings of obscure audio material i won't ever seriously listen to, lol

 

it's the same rips he did in 2017 i believe. (for the youtube "medley" upload at least)

It’s not noisy if it’s been denoised in the remastering process. 😁

Seriously, in my opinion it sounds even worse, it’s heavily post-processed, declicked and denoised, there are lots of artifacts also low frequecies are reduced, it doesn’t sound good at all. Your vinyl sounds likely the same if there is not much added surface noise of the disc itself. My old denoised mp3’s with pretty aggressive setting sound much better, really. The recording may be from 2017, but the “remastering” could’ve been applied recently, I don’t know what the tracks on his old website sounded like, whether they were pure transfer or somehow post-processed, as well.

 

22 hours ago, Daft said:

Has anyone bought the digital version yet? I‘m listening to it right now and while it‘s nice to have this as an official digital release, I‘m a little bit disappointed by the audio quality. It sounds quite flat with very little dynamics. Even the recordings from my 1994 retail vinyl, which is in a very poor shape, sound richer than this. What’s more, you can hear some noticeable clicks and scratches from the vinyl recording being used here. To be honest, I expected a bit more from this, given that it is marketed as „remastered“.

Is your copy visibly scratched or was it dj-(ab)used? If it’s just clicky with a stronger surface noise, I think that it’s normal here. I’ve come across three copies myself and had two other recordings from other people and none sounded really good. I think that this pressing was not that great when it came out.